Curse

Swift Thief · Jul 29, 2007, 11:08 PM // 23:08

/Not signed

There is already a limit...

Arthas of Orr · Jul 30, 2007, 12:56 AM // 00:56

/signed Heros should not be a part of Ha or GvG at all there is ero battles for that pourpose

Curse You · Jul 30, 2007, 04:59 AM // 04:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by God Apprentice

Seeing as that has been the way pugs have formed since Tombs began, then yes.

And what about people who can only spare 1 hour to play Guild Wars, but like to do HA? Having something that's so quick and easy to set up allows them to have their play time. Should they be stripped of their right to participate in the game just because their real life wouldn't permit it?

Undivine · Jul 30, 2007, 05:50 AM // 05:50

PvP is necessarily full of elitism. Imagine this: you are a great PvP player; confident in your skills; taking the effort to learn and flesh out strategies; becoming good at what you do; taking the time, with your buddies, to plan an effective, solid strategy. Then a newcomer comes by and has an easy time using heroway, utilizing the unfair advantages heroes have over humans.

Sure, it's not so bad when you are defeated by a good strategy, even if from a newcomer. You can admire them for that, and even learn a thing or two. But there is nothing to learn from heroes because they just do things better than any human is capable of doing. You can never apply those strategies except to shun half your team and run heroway yourself.

Sure, there is elitism. And it's well-earned. I'm not talking about those arrogant ass hairs who rage quit because the monk didn't bring Ether Signet; that's just ignorance. I mean people who are proud of their skill. That really is what HA was meant for. People who take PvP seriously generally do better in PvP than people who do it casually. That should be obvious. Now why should that obvious fact make people upset? Someone who takes skiing seriously may end up in the Olympics, whereas someone who skis for fun will have fun on the hills of Whistler, but they will never hope to go to the Olympics for it.

And yet, if you want to PvP for fun, you can still try your hand at HA, or battle in GvG, being matched up with guilds of similar rank, or any of the other arenas. Just don't consider it your right to win HA with ease.

I was reading this thread objectively and that's what I concluded. I never PvP, which I suppose could make some think they can ignore my arguments completely. I like playing against AI, but if I were PvPing, I would want that to be PvP through and through. If everyone is expected to use bots, then why even have PvP at all? The whole thing would be stale. I may as well just go back to doing Hard Mode.

No, I don't think it's reasonable to expect casual players to be competitive with pros. I don't think it's any God-given right to gain everything an expert gains when you're not treating it as seriously as they do. To me it just seems kinda low to abuse the advantages of the AI like that.

/signed

bhavv · Jul 30, 2007, 10:15 AM // 10:15

I can understand why the elitist players dont like heroes because it gives noobs an easy way to get fame. But how is anyone below rank 3 supposed to get any fame these days?

Heroes allow my farming guild to quickly setup a team and get some quick fame. They really only win one or twice due to a lack of co-ordination on the later maps, which is hardly imbalanced or anything. I am sure that they are learning how to play the game, and they only use heroes when they cant find people to join, as there are really only about 4 people in the guild that HA.

I used to help them too, but I dont get voip access anymore as I use mobile broadband unless I pay another £12.50 a month.

Now I were a great monk and rank 3, and am a great monk now. Ive been playing in rank 9-12 teams a few months ago and winning haals a good few times thanks to 2 good friends on my list, but at the start of summer both those friends stopped playing, so I am now without the abitity to get into a group I know that can hold halls, and really cant be bothered playing anymore either untill these friends come back to the game (if they ever do).

I pretty much vimwayed from R4 to R6, then herowayed halfway to R7 and got the rest from monking. My reasons for doing this were simply because no decent groups wanted a R3/4 monks, and it was the only way I could play a game of HA and get some fame to increase my rank and play with better teams.

Oh, and when I played HA in my friends team, heroes were really never a problem for us.

Big_Iron · Jul 30, 2007, 10:32 AM // 10:32

/not signed

Reasons have been pretty much covered in previous posts. When heroway starts winning HoH, then Anet should act. But for now, it's only good for a couple rounds in HA before they get sent packing.

Cass · Jul 30, 2007, 10:45 AM // 10:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

I can understand why the elitist players dont like heroes because it gives noobs an easy way to get fame. But how is anyone below rank 3 supposed to get any fame these days?

Heroes allow my farming guild to quickly setup a team and get some quick fame. They really only win one or twice due to a lack of co-ordination on the later maps, which is hardly imbalanced or anything. I am sure that they are learning how to play the game, and they only use heroes when they cant find people to join, as there are really only about 4 people in the guild that HA.

Why do these PvE farmers need fame so badly? It's just greed, wanting something you could otherwise not get. Their idiotic title hunt ruins the game for others who play for the competitive element. Scrubs who heroway are elitists, not the other way around.

They could set fame to zero and never let it come back for all I care. Or let PvE farmers buy fame for 1gp each. Just leave your bots out of the PvP playground.

Your own attitude to HA is so telling by the way. Only play when your high rank friends can pull your ass through, otherwise you can't be bothered. Of course, you don't give a damn about HA itself, you just see it as a place to farm XX. Minimal effort please, don't care if others lose the opportunity to play an interesting match.

They should make it so that bots can be set up to solo farm areas while I AFK or play PvP, and get me a shitload of cash. I'll deck all my chars AND all my heroes out with the rarest skins and see how you like having your stupid little farming game destroyed because that just took away all the joy of finding something rare. Olias got there first! Hey, I'm sure I'd be "learning how to play the game" while my heroes farm for me.

the_jos · Jul 30, 2007, 11:22 AM // 11:22

I would like to give my 2c to this discussion.

First of all, I am not an active PvP player, neither is my guild.
I do see added value for heroes in PvP for some guilds, but I would have them removed from PvP for various reasons.
One of the reasons is abuse of AI advantage.
We as guild ran heroway Discord a couple of times for fun.
We are bad at GvG, but managed to defeat guilds that were much higher ranked than our guild.
Sure, being a decent PvE monk with infuse experience helped, but the main advantage was AI.
Needless to say we would have failed big time against any good PvP guild.

The second reason I don't like heroes in PvP is more basic.
It's Player vs Player, not Player vs Player + AI.
When I want to kill AI, I can go in hero battles or plain old PvE.

The only reason for heroes is filling empty spots.
When you can't get 6 or 7 people together for PvP frequent, don't PvP.
We as guild stopped PvP for that reason.
If you want to PvP, find a guild that does PvP, or check your friends list.

bhavv · Jul 30, 2007, 11:45 AM // 11:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cass

Why do these PvE farmers need fame so badly? It's just greed, wanting something you could otherwise not get. Their idiotic title hunt ruins the game for others who play for the competitive element. Scrubs who heroway are elitists, not the other way around.

They could set fame to zero and never let it come back for all I care. Or let PvE farmers buy fame for 1gp each. Just leave your bots out of the PvP playground.

Your own attitude to HA is so telling by the way. Only play when your high rank friends can pull your ass through, otherwise you can't be bothered. Of course, you don't give a damn about HA itself, you just see it as a place to farm XX. Minimal effort please, don't care if others lose the opportunity to play an interesting match.

They should make it so that bots can be set up to solo farm areas while I AFK or play PvP, and get me a shitload of cash. I'll deck all my chars AND all my heroes out with the rarest skins and see how you like having your stupid little farming game destroyed because that just took away all the joy of finding something rare. Olias got there first! Hey, I'm sure I'd be "learning how to play the game" while my heroes farm for me.

1) We we are not just PVE'ers, we are players interested in PVE and PVP. We GVG, HA, TA, UW, FOW, DOA, HM and farm. It is the best guild I have ever been in and is imo the most all rounded guild suited for players that enjoy everything in the game.

2) Even if they set fame to 0 we would still HA because we enjoy it. The reason I quit is because my 'friends' dont play anymore. I enjoyed playing with them because they werent elitist and didnt scream into the mic when we lost, instead we were all up for another go day in day out and I could play HA constantly for hours on end with them. The builds we used were not fotm builds either, they were original. I took care of the monking builds since thats what I'm good at, the people that play damage took care of the damage builds. Since they stopped playing, I havnt found other teams that are half as well organised or fair to players, so I cant be bothered playing. If I wanted fame, I would still be playing HA wouldnt I?

3) Bots are illegal under the rules of the game. Heroes arent, so comparing the two isnt really valid.

Heroes allowed teams to be set up faster, and allowed players unable to get into groups because of the elitist a chance to play the game. I dont see anything wrong with that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by WoodyDotNet

/not signed

Reasons have been pretty much covered in previous posts. When heroway starts winning HoH, then Anet should act. But for now, it's only good for a couple rounds in HA before they get sent packing.

Nicely put. Heroway was winning HoH before it was limited, but I catually dont think it would work with all heroes anymore because of the new mechanics.

All I used to do was Angelic bond the ghostly, seed + SoA him and stand around nuking. Won halls with heroes and a Rank 0 monk. OFC it needed nerfing, but now hero way is useless compared to all human teams since co-ordination is a lot more important on the maps.

Gimme Money Plzkthx · Jul 30, 2007, 10:12 PM // 22:12

/signed, not going to bother explaining why.

deluxe · Jul 30, 2007, 10:19 PM // 22:19

Damn it, just lost again to 4 nubs and 4 heroes in GvG, do you know how annoying that gets? That you know the players suck, but the heroes make them good.

genofreek · Jul 31, 2007, 01:34 AM // 01:34

Agreed with Lorekeeper.

Also, /signed. No, I don't PvP much, but I like to Observe, and this is just broken. I can't even begin to tell you how boring heroway battles are to watch. There's no challenge, no excitement, no fun, just watching real players with real skill get slaughtered by AI. It should be roughly as legal as bot farming in PvE IMO.

Fitz Rinley · Jul 31, 2007, 02:22 AM // 02:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Undivine

PvP is necessarily full of elitism.

You mean sort of like Power attracts the corruptible and absolute power attracts the absolutely corruptible? So, PvP absolutely attracts the elitist? I can observe this.

Quote:

Sure, there is elitism. And it's well-earned. I'm not talking about those arrogant ass hairs who rage quit because the monk didn't bring Ether Signet; that's just ignorance. I mean people who are proud of their skill. That really is what HA was meant for.

Elitism is never earned. It is by nature a degradation of the humanity of all others to assume anyone, self or other, is elite. Promotion and acceptance of it is dehumanizing and therefore makes a social game "unfun."

Quote:

People who take PvP seriously generally do better in PvP than people who do it casually. That should be obvious. Now why should that obvious fact make people upset? Someone who takes skiing seriously may end up in the Olympics, whereas someone who skis for fun will have fun on the hills of Whistler, but they will never hope to go to the Olympics for it.

Who wins or loses in the Olympics has no control over my access to the city park. Who wins and loses in HA controls my access to game content. HA should not, and never should have been, in anyway be linked to FoW/UW. (No scrolls are merely another penalty and gold sink, not a correction of the wrong.)

Quote:

And yet, if you want to PvP for fun, you can still try your hand at HA, or battle in GvG, being matched up with guilds of similar rank, or any of the other arenas. Just don't consider it your right to win HA with ease.

There is a difference between demanding a right to win with ease and being denied emotes and titles for the persona of one's character because you can never ever be a part of that 0.1% of elite players in the top 25 elite teams.

Quote:

I was reading this thread objectively and that's what I concluded. I never PvP, which I suppose could make some think they can ignore my arguments completely. I like playing against AI, but if I were PvPing, I would want that to be PvP through and through. If everyone is expected to use bots, then why even have PvP at all? The whole thing would be stale. I may as well just go back to doing Hard Mode.

I fully understand the position. What I am amused by is that the game bends over backwards to allow PvP to operate separately of PvE, and disdain PvE as something for the peasants, granting skin changes, skill purchase, special private titles, etc. In the meantime, some people have found a way to bust their little private country club and enjoy their privilege and they don't like it. Now they can't boast, brag, question people's sexuality or out right call them names just because they won using an experienced build honed over 2 years of play. I find it out right hilarious. And I will look back on their tantrums with a smile long after ANet rushes in and makes their world all happy for them again.

Quote:

No, I don't think it's reasonable to expect casual players to be competitive with pros. I don't think it's any God-given right to gain everything an expert gains when you're not treating it as seriously as they do. To me it just seems kinda low to abuse the advantages of the AI like that.

I dont think it is reasonable in a game where we all purchased our copy (copies) to play that people be relegated into the you will never matter as much as we do category by those who errantly think endless hours of repetitive PvP should be a paid profession. No one is supposed to be a pro. No one is supposed to be getting paid to maintain a team or guilds standing in the rankings. Since, there are not supposed to be any professionals (no elites) the comeuppence going down does not bother me in the least.

And no, I am not looking to PvP or get the rewards there. ANet has had many opportunities to make PvP rewarding for PvE players and generally refused to take them. I dont have enough time for what I do in PvE, and the only reason I ever PvP is to open a skill so I can buy it where and when I need it.

Evilsod · Jul 31, 2007, 02:28 AM // 02:28

Did Anet ever actually give a reason as to why they let AI become a very strong part of PLAYER vs PLAYER?

Hero battles exist for a reason...

Curse You · Jul 31, 2007, 04:41 AM // 04:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by the_jos

The second reason I don't like heroes in PvP is more basic.
It's Player vs Player, not Player vs Player + AI.
When I want to kill AI, I can go in hero battles or plain old PvE.

So those henchmen standing near the archway are just there for show?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evilsod

Did Anet ever actually give a reason as to why they let AI become a very strong part of PLAYER vs PLAYER?

Hero battles exist for a reason...

Again, there have always been henchmen. Sure they're not as good as heroes, but they're still AI.

Frankly, there's a reason you can see what's on a hero. It's because you can't have them on TS/Vent with you and they won't call out what's on them. A coordinated party could have a person match a hero's ability to "know" what enchantments are on each party member.
After that, a hero is only as good as the build given to them. And frankly, the build is really what wins.

How many people have actually looked at the build used with heroes and tried to make a counter? It's actually not that hard.

Monk Gsb · Jul 31, 2007, 04:56 AM // 04:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fitz Rinley

Promotion and acceptance of it is dehumanizing and therefore makes a social game "unfun."

1st off its "not fun" or "no longer fun" not "unfun"

2nd if your saying that hero's should be allowed then it is not "a social game" if it were "a social game" people would spend longer tring to find groups of people to play with instead of being anti social and taking hero's because they dont wanna deal with other people being ass' to them when they try and form a group

infymys · Jul 31, 2007, 06:08 AM // 06:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Curse You

A coordinated party could have a person match a hero's ability to "know" what enchantments are on each party member.

I challenge anybody to match Olias' skill and efficiency at running any of the necro bars that are used in the standard heroway build.

Cass · Jul 31, 2007, 08:36 AM // 08:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

3) Bots are illegal under the rules of the game. Heroes arent, so comparing the two isnt really valid.

Heroes allowed teams to be set up faster, and allowed players unable to get into groups because of the elitist a chance to play the game. I dont see anything wrong with that.

With "bots" I meant using heroes in this case.

Your continued use of "elitism" to defend the heroes is ridiculous. Why do you not group with those that have about the same experience as you? Oh yes, they are too "n00b" for you. "Lol my heroes are better" You're the elitist.

Might as well close this thread. It's the 6v6 all over again with the shitty scrubs arguing loudly, while they don't even play HA until they see a chance to farm a deer in a few days. 5 days of farming is all they need and whether it's 6v6 or Olias, it HAS to stay to provide them this opportunity. They'll be gone after the deer anyway... and so will everyone else except Olias.

shoogi · Jul 31, 2007, 09:14 AM // 09:14

Heroes were a bad idea as they hurt both pvp and pve. I would personally delete them completely. ofc, anet cant do that, so at least kick them from pvp. /signed.

qboyz · Jul 31, 2007, 09:33 AM // 09:33

fine. seems that a lot of you defending heroway are simply ignoring the meaning of PvP: competative gameplay. If you want to "farm" in HA maps why dont you go to tombs in pve? (no one is blocking that game content) If you want to get fame, then you have to be competative enough to get it. It's not a bad thing to lose against high-ranked ppl because they invested more time than you have, which means they are more familiar with the game than you, so why dont you try to learn the game a bit more instead of complaining here in forum?
and besides, if you think those who signed for getting rid of heros in HA/GvG were unable to beat them, how about trying this:

rule: only heroway and balanced can enter HA

I'll be very very thankful if you like it. xD